Research A’chaqwen E’hichene in a Good Way: Decolonizing the Group Interview through Talking Circles
By: Jessica Margarita Gutierrez Masini (Detribalized accomplice)1, William Madrigal (Cahuilla, Luiseño), Josh Gonzales (Xictlaka-Mexika), Cuauhtémoc Peranda (Mescalero-Apache/Mexica-Chichimeca), and Joshua Thunder Little (Oglala Lakota).
Introduction, Permission, Roadmap
Miyaxwen umon. Chem’netew Will Madrigal, Cuauhtémoc Peranda, Josh Gonzales, Joshua Thunder Little, pen Jessica Margarita Gutierrez Masini. Chemakiwe Riverside-nga.
Our names are Will, Cuauhtémoc, Josh, Joshua, and Jessica Margarita. We gather in Riverside, California and are from various lands of Turtle Island. This collective introduction in ‘ívillu’at (the Cahuilla language), is the original language of Will Madrigal, and where we live and work. We begin with it as a way of introducing and thanking the Íviatem (Peoples) past, present, and future whose land, water, fire, and air, we speak from. We recognize the long history of exchange and migration in this area, and we equally acknowledge Máara'yam (Serrano), Payómkawichum (“People of the West”), Tongva, and Kizh (Gabrieleño) Peoples as original and current caretakers of these lands and waterways.2
Talking circles are a practice used by some Indigenous communities across America to discuss issues, exchange ideas, and heal trauma. They have been utilized in the health and public policy sectors as a method of qualitative analysis (Picou 2000; Mehl-Madrona and Mainguy 2014; Brandenburger, Wells, and Stluka 2017), and in classrooms and as a pedagogical tool for structuring class discussions, both in-person and online (Brown and Di Lallo 2020; Cowan and Adams 2002; Winters n.d.). Talking circles unfold in many ways depending upon the levels of experience and mastery among the people involved (Cowan and Adams 2002). They necessitate that dignity and respect given and received by all involved, which helps foster a sense of community. They are tools to explore community tensions or resistance.3
Talking circles facilitate listening and learning together through four stages: building connection, piercing the surface, delving deeper, and reflecting and learning (Winters n.d.).4 They begin with building connections: often there is an opening prayer or song, medicine is often offered (meaning sacred plants are burned), and we introduce ourselves or check in with one another.5 The facilitator makes sure everyone agrees on protocol for the talking circle and then we move to “piercing the surface.” In this round, the facilitator offers a topic, and everyone reveals their personal connections to said topic, which often leads to storytelling. The next round delves deeper into community issues: it is a time to explore problems, entertain new ideas, or a space to grieve together. Talking circles end with reflection, empowerment, and if necessary, conflict resolution, before the leader closes the circle with another offering of medicine.
Our piece, modeled after a talking circle, is a materialized envisioning of decolonizing writing and publishing. We define decolonization as a spectrum ranging from actionable matters such as giving the land/water/air/fire rights back to Indigenous peoples and the sovereignty of Tribal Nations, to more intimate, powerful movements of hope, resilience, and love (Tuhiwai Smith 2012, Million 2009, Risling Baldy 2018).
Decolonization does not mean that we can undo or forget centuries of colonialism, however, we envision an Indigenous future thriving on stewardship and reciprocity. As it concerns research, Indigenous scholars Linda Tuhiwai Smith (Māori) and Margaret Kovach (Nêhiyaw and Saulteaux), recommend that researchers follow certain protocols to demonstrate Indigenous recognition, consent, and respect (Tuhiwai Smith 1999/2012, Kovach 2021). Drawing from their methodology, we use autoethnographic approaches to weave storytelling and compassionate listening.6 This presents a multisensorial narrative of talking circles as opportunities for decolonizing interview processes. In sharing how we bridge Indigenous methodologies, peoples, and voices, we demonstrate the weight of academic responsibilities to fellow communities, our ancestors, and future generations. Decolonizing one’s livelihood, community, and beyond is an ongoing negotiation of how to do things in a good way.
A’chaqwen e’hichene, or in a good way in English, is a common expression shared by us coauthors.7 It means to learn our culture, practice medicine, maintain reciprocity with the world, and ensure the next seven generations to come (Peranda et al. 2020). In sharing our conversation on what it means to do things in a good way, we hope that readers take away that the expression has varying and Nation-specific meanings. As Ball and Janyst (2008) assert, “An over-generalized, pan-Indigenous set of practices for enacting ethics in research involving Indigenous peoples is to be avoided; rather, each investigation should begin with relationship building and dialogue about how to proceed in a good way’.” Many Nations have their own origins and understandings of in a good way, so it’s crucial to make those relations with the Indigenous communities in your area, so that you can ethically learn and practice appropriate protocol.
We five coauthors met in 2017 through Native American Student Programs (NASP) at the University of California, Riverside (UCR).8 William Madrigal (Cahuilla, Luiseño), Cuauhtémoc Peranda (Mescalero-Apache/Mexica-Chichimeca), Joshua Thunder Little (Oglala Lakota), and Josh Gonzales (Xictlaka-Mexika) were prominent voices in Jessica’s master’s thesis (Gutierrez Masini 2018). We keep in touch through volunteering, supporting each other’s events, casual encounters around campus, and singing or dancing together (e.g., Danza, Cahuilla Bird Songs, powwow songs and dance). Below readers will find our photos and short bios, to gain a sense of where each of us are coming from and how we relate.
Joshua Thunder Little (Oglala Lakota) is currently a doctoral candidate in History at UC Riverside. While Joshua was completing his two bachelor’s degrees at UCR, Jessica and Joshua became friends after enrolling in a new Ethnic Studies course where everyone picked a Native American language of their choice to study. Since then, we have taken other Indigenous-centered courses together including Will Madrigal’s Cahuilla language series, collaborated for campus events like #IndigenizeUCR, and connect through social media.
As an adopted queer person, Jessica Margarita Gutierrez Masini is reconnecting to Mexican and Indigenous mixed ancestry and does not claim a Tribal Nation or affiliation. Her identity as a detribalized accomplice is grounded in conversations that she’s had in community with trusted Elders who understand the density of Indigeneity for those of Mexican ancestry and living in the United States. Week by week, she is held accountable by her Danza group, Kapulli Teuxihuitl, (an intertribal Indigenous music, dance, and spiritual group practice from México) and the powwow communities she serves. While earning her doctorate in Ethnomusicology at UC Riverside, she strengthens the links between decolonizing research and supporting Indigenous self-determination.
Overall Prince Dante Lauren, of the House of Lauren, International, also known as Cuauhtémoc Peranda (Mescalero-Apache/Mexica-Chichimeca) is a doctoral candidate Critical Dance Studies at UC Riverside. As a self-identified Two-Spirits Butch Queen Voguer from Santa Cruz, and lifelong Danza practitioner they have longstanding relationships with diverse “Urban Indian” communities around the globe. After meeting at NASP events, Cuauhtémoc and Jessica quickly bonded over tackling coursework, exams, and dissertation writing as queer brown peoples in academia. Photography by George Ochoa and Glam by Vivian Lauren.
Will Madrigal (Cahuilla, Luiseño) is currently a doctoral candidate in Native American Studies at UC Riverside. He identifies with both Cahuilla and Luiseño Nations but grew up on the Cahuilla reservation in Anza. In 2017, he started graduate school the same year as Joshua Little, and a year after Jessica Gutierrez Masini. We have taken graduate seminars together, cowritten grant applications, and Jessica and Joshua learned Cahuilla language, culture, and history in the new language series Will taught.
Josh Gonzales (Xictlaka/ Mexika) is a UCR alumna and has served as the Director for Native American Student Programs office since 2005. While hanging at the NASP office and volunteering at events, Jessica learned from Josh about his life experiences and his ideas regarding Indigeneity across the U.S./ México border. For over thirty years, Josh has been practicing Danza, the last fifteen in Kapulli Teuxihuitl with his wife, learning Nahuatl language, and raising their two children in ceremony.
Research A’chaqwen E’hichene in a Good Way
Our talking circle group interview took place May 15th, 2020. One of the most enlightening (and unplanned) experiences from the talking circle interview was discussing what it means to do things in a good way. Below are excerpts from our talking circle group interview.9
Jessica: “I wonder what doing things in a good way means to each one of you? Will, you kind of talked about it for you, but you know, I hear that phrase a lot —doing things in a good way. So maybe this is another question that can take us around. What does that mean to do things, in a good way?”
Cuauhtémoc: “Well, the simple answer as I was taught, was to do things with medicine. But then you must define medicine, right? Then, what is ‘doing,’ what is ‘with,’ you know? That’s not a simple answer. To do things in a good waywas not something…like if I was to teach that in a class, it would be very difficult to do.”
“Because—” *They make a concentrated face*
“I learned it growing up: how to respect Elders, how to respect children. –-I was tested on it -–how to respect women, how to protect men, how to live amongst Two-Spirit(s).10 I was brought up learning those ways. I had my ceremony, my Warrior Ceremony,11 and I was tested on it: how to build the fire, how to do the sweat, how to sing a song, how to respect the spirits of things, how to listen. To the river? How to dance in the ocean, you know? To do things in a good way means to do things with protocol, but not just because you know the protocol and know it’s important, but to understand the layers of it.”
Joshua Little: “From what I understand it doesn’t always have to be inherently tied to culture, because not everyone is brought up in their traditional teachings because of the conditions of colonization. People have had to respond by trying to survive and not everyone has the opportunity to be able to be connected to those things and automatically know. You know, what medicines to use, and what not to use -they can learn, and over time they will, and that’s a part of being in a good way is being able to listen to each other and have basic respect for one another and hear everybody.”
*He pauses. *
“You know, communication, transparency, so I think that’s really important to understand that everybody’s in/at a difference place at a different time. If they have the understanding and conversing with and treating people –just listening and talking back with them, maintaining that type of relationship. I think that’s what it means to be in a good way.”
Josh Gonzales: “You know for me growing up, from the ceremony, you understand the different things that need to be done. Some of what folks have already mentioned is obviously being respectful and understanding, and really getting that advice from the Elders. You are doing your due diligence of going out and learning from the Elders. When you do things in a good way, you’re praying about it, thinking about it, getting advice from the Elders. You’re taking that advice and taking it with every step and every breath that you take with that.”
*He pauses. *
“How you present yourself. You try to do that in a good way, that’s what we say. And so, you’re always constantly thinking about those things from the teachings and lessons that you learn from your Elder, from your community, from your children. Praying about it, thinking about it in that way… But also learning to be humble about it. Be willing to learn and take those lessons. That’s how we learn, right? We do something wrong, we learn from that mistake, or you seek that advice and try to make that understanding. But you don’t do the same thing over and over again. You try to learn from those mistakes and do things in a good way.”
Will: “You want to have a heightened awareness whenever you’re trying to do these things. And that’s not to discourage you or scare you away from doing them, just so you know that there’s a protocol and those are set guidelines to help YOU tell the story in a good way, right? That’s what we always say as Indian people, to do things in a good way. That’s what we’re talking about: taking responsibility, having heightened awareness, and collaborating effectively and lawful with those knowledge-keepers, and those Elders that are here to help you, to encourage you.”
“And I think that that also translates to and is akin to doing things with a humble heart. You do things with a humble heart, I was told, you will be recognized for it even though that’s not your intention. Your intention is to uplift others. To celebrate others who can contribute to the knowledge base that you are accumulating as a human being throughout your life. It is synonymous, with doing things in a good way, doing things with a humble heart, doing things for others, doing things that you know are gonna benefit others, was my take from what the Elders have passed. The knowledge they passed to me.”
*He smiles. *
“To better yourself and better your community, not for the sake of knowledge or institutionalized academic prestige that we all have to fight in academia and in the institution. For me, that’s more fulfilling, that gives me a better understanding of why and what motivates me to continue in the institution to get that PhD. I’m always thinking ‘What am I going to do with it’. It’s not the end all just to get that degree, it’s a high mountain to climb, it’s a tough project. But what are we gonna do, what am I gonna do for the next 7 generations? And how do I do that in a humble way? Not falling into that trap and be self-serving, egotistical, that type of living.”
Jessica: “Does anyone else have anything to add, or final comments on this subject?
Joshua Little: “I think it’s awesome that collectively, or really anybody in the world, when we say do things in a good way, everybody has their own way of saying that in their language. Some people do know the language, some people don’t, so by people all having this collective understanding of being respectful towards one another, just shows the respect that cultures have within humanity and in themselves, how they meet newcomers, whether or not they’ve had relationships before, or they’re just developing new ones, it’s just a commonality that people have within their ways of knowing.”
Jessica: “Thank you so much for just taking a moment to all think through with me. Because hearing you all share, it’s kind of is what I think about when I hear that phrase. I think of listening, and I think of putting your heart out there, not doing it for yourself but for community. I really like how people mentioned not only to listen and respect your Elders but also to think about the generations, like children. You can learn from your children, and young people, all the different age groups are important to consider. When so often we think about ancestors and Elders, but we can learn from everyone in the community. Everyone has something to contribute and learn from.”
Reflections
Our circle was successful in reconnecting with each other, diving into research questions, and talking and thinking through Indigenous identity. Based on our conversations that day, doing research in a good way (to us) involves consulting with community and Elders (of all ages), offering gifts and reciprocity (from listening and taking time to understand someone’s story, to monetary gifts and giving credit where credit is due), following Indigenous protocols (and understanding why they are in place), and medicine (in both the Western and Indigenous sense of the word).12 We want to reiterate that we don’t advocate for a pan-Indigenous translation to doing things in a good way, but rather offer our specific and personal interpretations of the expression.
We witnessed the benefits that talking circles (with proper preparation, permission, and humility) have in approaching group interviews. While we cannot speak to every research or interview situation, we believe that decentering the researcher as investigator and participants as knowledge-bearers aids in creating a multi-layered meaning-making experience that everyone can contribute to and learn from. By focusing on the persons and non-persons being listened to, rather than the results of the interview, we practiced compassionate understanding and sitting with our knowledge sharing process.13 We also acknowledge that talking circles only work in a community built on mutual respect and trust. To avoid overstepping any boundaries, we recommend not leading a talking circle with individuals you just met, and first attending a talking circle in your community.
Through talking circles, we are learning to learn. A’chama pen paypa enteewnem.14
Footnotes
[1] This talking circle interview practice was inspired by Mohawk scholar musician Dawn Avery and the Indigenous research methodologies she articulates in her 2014 dissertation. Utilizing talking circles in group interviews with Native composers, Dawn Avery gave every member a chance to speak on a particular topic (2014). Observing this egalitarian way of learning and talking together, Gutierrez Masini thought, what a great way to decolonize the group interview! Then, immediately thought, wait, is this appropriate? Thus, began this talking circle journey in collaboration with William Madrigal, Cuauhtémoc Peranda, Josh Gonzales, and Joshua Thunder Little.
Detribalized means I do not have a tribal affiliation or Nation because of Mexican and United States policies which de-indigenized Native peoples by removing them from their homelands. However, I recognize that I am a guest on unceded lands/waters/airs/fires, so I intentionally use accomplice over ally in reference to a 2014 post by the sacred lands defense organization Indigenous Action, “Accomplices Not Allies: Abolishing the Ally Industrial Complex,” http://www.indigenousaction.org/accomplices-not-allies-abolishing-the-ally-industrial-complex/.
[2] We encourage readers to look up and learn more about the Peoples whose lands/waterways they occupy in one of three ways:
1) https://native-land.ca/
2) a Facebook bot: https://www.facebook.com/LandAcknowledgement/
3) a new SMS bot developed making it easier for those in the US to learn which Indigenous territories they’re standing on. Just text your zip code or your city and state (separated by a comma) to (907) 312-5085 and the bot will respond with the names of the Native lands that correspond to that region. The service currently only works for US residents but may be available for other countries in the future.
[3] Conversations on tensive or heavy Indigenous subjects include coming out as LGBTQ2+, the historical use of blood quantum erasing Indigenous peoples, belonging, and more.
[4] This structure comes from communication specialist, Alaina Winters in a public document online for using talking circles in the classroom. https://www.heartland.edu/documents/idc/talkingcircleclassroom.pdf
[5] Different kinds of medicine may be offered depending on person, location, and season, but some examples are (white) sage, tobacco, cedar, rosemary, lavender, and copal.
[6] Building upon xwélméxw (Stó:lō) professor Dylan Robinson’s decolonial critique of “sonic encounters” (2020) between Indigenous traditions and Western music, Gutierrez Masini implements a kind of engaged listening process that attends to the relationship between listener and that person being listened to. By reorienting our listening relationship to what she calls compassionate listening, she reintroduces reciprocity and emotions in scholarship to counter the legacy of historical research with Indigenous communities. Compassionate listening is a decolonizing strategy where the intention of listening is not focused on conversation content, nor extracting knowledge from knowledge-bearers. Instead, Gutierrez Masini focuses on creating mutual relationships –letting friends and interlocutors lead the narrative.
[7] By us we mean us authors, however in a good way is also a common expression across Indigenous Nations with varying personal and Nation-specific meanings. Following Gregory Younging, we capitalize the term Nation capitalized because it has become widely accepted by Indigenous peoples to describe separate Indigenous groups as sovereign political entities (2018, 68).
[8] On university campuses, ethnic and gender centers like the NASP office provide students with opportunities and resources for learning, both in the classroom and about themselves, around a supportive Indigenous-centered community of students, staff, and faculty.
[9] This transcription models Diamond and Hoefnagel’s edited volume Aboriginal Music in Contemporary Canada (2012). In a period of increased interactions between academic communities, culture bearers, creative artists, and Elders in Canada, Diamond and Hoefnagels intentionally curate works that not only reflect these exchanges but highlight them as primary sources. Just as they equally value their conventionally written scholarly chapters in their edited collection to the chapters containing whole interview transcriptions, we value our exchanges from the talking circle group interview.
[10] Cuauhtémoc believes that Bay American Indian Two Spirit Co-chair, Landa Lakes (Miko Thomas) defines it best or as it was shared to them. Two Spirit is 1) being Native (Indigenous), 2) being gay, trans, or gender non-conforming or what have you, and 3) being committed to [Two Spirit] community. See more about the Largest Two Spirit Powwow in the Nation on Youtube here: https://youtu.be/gjZAb01U3Ac.
[11] In Danza, a Warrior Ceremony is a sort of coming of age and training process that adolescents accomplish, with details varying between kapulli to kapulli (family or group). When first hearing about it, I liken it in some ways to a boy scout’s Eagle Project because it involves an outreach project for the benefit of the community. Peranda shares his Ocelotl Ceremony, created and supervised under California danzante legend Chuy “The Jefe” (The Boss), who “transformed youth…to young men through a platform from which to look into manhood critically via a traditional Aztec/Mexica praxis” (Castillo and Güido 2020).
[12] We recognize that our understanding of doing things in a good way in this piece is heavily male-influenced, considering that three of the five participants are cis-men and one Two-Spirits Butch Queen.
[13] We do not mean to reinforce a binary between research and Indigenous epistemologies and ontologies, but hope to develop sitting with (ideas, questions, etc.) and being as research (Wilson 2008, Margolin 2021).
[14] “A’chama” is the closest to “Thank you” in the Cahuilla language and means “good feelings,” or “the fire burns bright within me.” “Paypa enteewnem” is the equivalent to goodbye in English and means “until we see each other again,” in Cahuilla language emphasizing the cyclical nature of life (Will Madrigal in Cahuilla language courses at UC Riverside).
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